Manasataramgini, biologist, Sanskritist, gifted amateur mathematician, staunch Hindu, more so than the so-called Hindu right-wing, and most relevant, long-time staunch Aryan invasionist - for years, ridiculing any Hindu who thought there was no invasion - feels vindicated by the recent findings in ancient DNA. Nevertheless, with the postulated dates of incursions, he sees a problem, and to solve it, he postulates:
“we conclude that the core RV, meaning a certain archaic kernel of it was definitely composed outside India and probably much earlier even if the final redaction and compilation happened later in India. We see no other way out.”
The problem is that there is no such “core Rg Veda”. Even the postulated oldest parts of the Rg Veda are from within India.
“we conclude that the core RV, meaning a certain archaic kernel of it was definitely composed outside India and probably much earlier even if the final redaction and compilation happened later in India. We see no other way out.”
The problem is that there is no such “core Rg Veda”. Even the postulated oldest parts of the Rg Veda are from within India.
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Guest · 354 weeks ago
nainankovoor 17p · 354 weeks ago
And yet his writings on the questions of Aryan origins have been curiously unsatisfactory. He has not to my knowledge put together a cogent argument for why he believes the available evidence - genetic, linguistic, etc - conclusively proves an Aryan invasion of India. While he holds forth on the paramount importance of discernment, accuses the proponents of Indo-Aryan autochthonism of lacking discernment, and claims that OIT is now dead and cremated, he doesn't seem to have much of real substance to say on the question.
Is MT trying to 'save the phenomena' by hypothesizing an archaic kernel to the RV, composed outside India, in the absence of any evidence that such a kernel exists? This perhaps parallels the concoction of a hypothetical PIE, in the absence of any attestation that such a language actually existed.
macgupta 81p · 354 weeks ago
Baji Rao 1:
Arun,
Manasataramgini is wrong about genetic evidence supporting Aryan invasion. Some recent articles in Indian media over the last couple of days seems to have refuted the conclusion of there being any genetic evidence for aryan invasion. The article:
"No migration to rakigarhi since Harappan times:experts" on the news site economic times.
Also bronze age chariots have been discovered in sanauli, uttar pradesh. These chariots have been dated to 2200 bc to 1800 bc, well before the alleged time of the hypothetical Aryan invasion.
According to talageri, the entire rig Veda was composed in northern India and not outside it. Both the oldest parts down to the youngest parts were exclusively composed in north india, the specific area being haryana western uttar pradesh.
Arun,
Although I respect manasataramgini's articles on other topics relevant to Hinduism but as far as his understanding of Aryan invasion theory goes, he is totally wrong. Can manasataramgini explain why archaeologists in general, reject Aryan invasion and say there is no evidence for it?
Arun,
Also why haven't you posted information on the newly discovered Indian bronze age chariots? Seems to me you have some bias towards the Aryan invasion theory. Why the selectiveness on your blog?
CapitalistImperialistPig said...
The discoverers claim the chariots are not IVC. Plausible suspects are steppe invaders.
@capitalistimperialistpig,
The chariots are dated to 2200 bc to 1800 bc,well before the hypothetical Aryan invasion of around 1500 bc, so it can't be connected to any Aryan invasion or steppe. The chariots must have been known to the indus valley civilization since the place where those chariots were found is to the east of the indus valley, in uttar Pradesh. It is likely that those chariots are indeed connected to indus valley civilization.
macgupta 81p · 354 weeks ago
Guest · 354 weeks ago
"The Indo-Aryan migrations started in approximately 1800 BCE, after the invention of the war chariot, and also brought Indo-Aryan languages into the Levant and possibly Inner Asia. It was part of the diffusion of Indo-European languages from the proto-Indo-European homeland at the Pontic–Caspian steppe, a large area of grasslands in far Eastern Europe, which started in the 5th to 4th millennia BCE, and the Indo-European migrations out of the Eurasian Steppes, which started approximately in 2000 BCE.[7][1]"
However old the Rigveda is, it can hardly predate the arrival of Indo-European from the steppes, since every evidence is that it was always preserved in an IE language. In any case, the first written traces are much more recent than the chariot dates.
Guest · 354 weeks ago
Recommend that you read David Reichs new book, Who we are and how we got here, Ancient DNA and the new science of the human past.
Baji Rao 1 could profit by reading it too, but it might offend his preconceptions.
dwc · 354 weeks ago
Guest · 353 weeks ago
tim · 351 weeks ago
Dti · 348 weeks ago
Niraj Rai's yet other interview . So rakhigarhi (N =1) turns to be Iranian-farmer with no steppe component but then he says (or may be the writer misinterprets) that Iranian-farmer is only present in south Indians but not in North Indians !!!. In the vagheesh's paper everyone from North to south has iranian_farmer ancestry !
Guest · 347 weeks ago
Guest · 347 weeks ago
Was talking about this one