Tuesday, April 10, 2018

Ancestry Models

In Lazarides et. al. 2016, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/06/16/059311.full.pdf,  modeling ANI (Ancestral North Indian)
While the Early/Middle Bronze Age ‘Yamnaya’-related group (Steppe_EMBA) is a good genetic match (together with Neolithic Iran) for ANI, the later Middle/Late Bronze Age steppe population (Steppe_MLBA) is not.
However, in Narasimhan et. al. 2018, Steppe_MLBA is seen to be a better match, and Steppe_EMBA is ruled out.  Underlying it are different other components of ancestry that are used.

In Lazarides,  the other components of ancestry are Iran_N(eolithic), Onge, and Han.
In Narasimhan, the other components of ancestry are Iran agriculturist (same as Iran_N?) , AASI (another name for Onge), and a composite of "Indus_Periphery" and Swat SGPT and early historic individuals.  

Why is it important? Because if these genetic findings are correlated with language (a big if!) and  because if the Rg Veda is taken seriously, e.g., its mentions of the Saraswati River, then a post-IVC arrival of I.E. is untenable.  Likewise with the Vedic Indra-Varuna-Mitra- Nasatyas in the Mitanni documents.  Steppe_EMBA doesn't rule out a pre-IVC-collapse arrival; but Steppe_MLBA pretty much does.

One should note that Steppe_EMBA itself lies on the cline between Iran_Chalcolithic and European Hunter Gatherer, and Steppe_MLBA is largely Steppe_EMBA but on the Steppe_EMBA - European_MidNeolithic_Chalcolithic cline.  (see Lazarides 2016 for this, excerpted diagrams here).
But in contemplating the difference between Lazarides and Narasimhan, it seems the Siberian Hunter Gather component is what makes the difference. 

A question would be - do Steppe_EMBA and Steppe_MLBA have "similar ancestry profiles"? Apparently in the context of the Narasimhan et. al. model, for the purpose of modeling ANI they do not.  Yet, for the purpose of modeling ANI,  Indus_Periphery and Swat individuals have a similar ancestry profile.  




Comments (16)

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If Steppe people did not bring Sanskrit then what language did they bring with them? There must be some trace of the language they brought in, so where is the trace of the language they brought with them? For example less than 1% of the Indian population, the British, had a profound impact and English is one of the most widely used language in India. Similarly a large portion of the north Indian languages have words from Persian, Arabic, and Turkic because of invasion by forces from these regions.

The invading/migrating Aryans were far more numerous than the British, ascertained by the fact that most Indians carry between 20% - 40% Steppe DNA, so where is the trace of their language if not Sanskrit?!
13 replies · active 316 weeks ago
What language did the Indo-Scythians (Saka) bring with them? They invaded 100 BCE - 100 CE. The official calendar of modern India is based on the Saka era. Where is the trace of the language they brought with them? Only on very general grounds is it said that they spoke an Indo-European (Iranian clade) of language.
Sakas probably spoke some form of old/middle Persian, there is enough Persian words used in north Indian languages ( 10 -15% in HIndustani, higher in Urdu), so at least a portion of Persian words used on the subcontinent can be attributed to Sakas! So the trace of Sakas language is there, linguists should be able to better answer this question.
Really? Show Persian words in works from 1st to 10th centuries CE and make your case.
To prove something like that requires substantial amount of written literature present for the period, which I am afraid, is not the case, but it certainly gives me the pretext to read all volumes of Kalidasa! But in any case it is a fair guess that Sakas did speak some form of Indo-Iranian and subsequently Indo-Aryan, both these language family have substantial common vocabulary. The word Saka itself is of Indo-Iranian origin. There is absolutely no way to tell that Sakas did not make any contribution to north Indian languages.
Exactly, if the incomers' language is close enough, then the influence is even less perceptible.
Genetically, the Sakas seem to be mostly MLBA Yamnaya - very like previous steppe invaders. Their language (Middle Iranian) is attested in documents. See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saka_language. It "share[s] features with modern Pashto and Wakhi."
All writing seems to be from the 4th century CE onwards. We're talking about the language from 500 years earlier.
Second comment: The Wiki article says "Many Prakrit terms were borrowed from Khotanese into the Tocharian languages."

This is very strange. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prakrit
The Prakrits (/ˈprɑːkrɪt/; Sanskrit: प्राकृत prākṛta; Shauraseni: pāuda; Jain Prakrit: pāua) are any of several Middle Indo-Aryan languages formerly spoken in India.[2][3] Texts written in these languages date from the 3rd century BC to the 8th century AD or later.

Why would words originating in Prakrit have some special property to be passed from Khotanese to Tocharian (attested 6-8th century AD)? Either Khotanese influenced Tocharian or the Prakrits did.
Third comment: http://www.languagesgulper.com/eng/Khotanese.html
One distinguishing feature of Khotanese is the presence of retroflex consonants, absent in other Middle Indo-Iranian languages.

Calling Khotanese "Middle Indo-Iranian" is linguist bullshit.

This is likely clearly a case of Sakas invaded India ~100 CE, and Indian languages spread back into the original Saka homeland. But because linguists' classification names follow their theory, they call it "Middle Indo-Iranian".
"This is likely clearly a case of Sakas invaded India ~100 CE, and Indian languages spread back into the original Saka homeland. But because linguists' classification names follow their theory, they call it "Middle Indo-Iranian"." --- the situation might be the reverse. There was a Mauryan prince( yes ,the Maurya dynasty to which Asoka belonged) ,Kushitana ( some people theorize that Khotan is named after the prince but there might be other possibilities also) who supposedly led a campaign to Tarim Basin. The Sakas who came later proclaimed descendance from Kushitana lol
Among white America, the predominant ancestry is German. Where are the traces of German in American English?
There are many German words used in American English which are not used English of other regions. A quick google search should yield up a whole lot of german words used in American English, but not used elsewhere.
So it should be easy for you to give examples.

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